# LANGUAGE translation of https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/rms-interview-edinburgh.html # Copyright (C) YEAR Free Software Foundation, Inc. # This file is distributed under the same license as the original article. # FIRST AUTHOR , YEAR. # #, fuzzy msgid "" msgstr "" "Project-Id-Version: rms-interview-edinburgh.html\n" "POT-Creation-Date: 2021-09-11 09:56+0000\n" "PO-Revision-Date: YEAR-MO-DA HO:MI+ZONE\n" "Last-Translator: FULL NAME \n" "Language-Team: LANGUAGE \n" "Language: \n" "MIME-Version: 1.0\n" "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=CHARSET\n" "Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit\n" #. type: Content of: msgid "" "Interview with Richard Stallman, Edinburgh, 2004 - GNU Project - Free " "Software Foundation" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h2> msgid "Interview with Richard Stallman, Edinburgh, 2004" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><div><p> msgid "" "Transcript of an interview that took place at the School of Informatics, " "Edinburgh University, on 27 May 2004; originally published at <a " "href=\"https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/05/292609.html\">Indymedia</a> " "(<a " "href=\"https://web.archive.org/web/20050310050052if_/http://www.scotland.indymedia.org/usermedia/application/3/rms-interview-edinburgh-270504.ogg\">audio " "recording</a>)." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "" "A person doesn't devote his whole life to developing a new form of freedom " "without some pre-existing beliefs that drive him to do so. What drives you " "to spend so much time on software freedoms?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "First of all, growing up in the US in the 1960s, I certainly was exposed to " "ideas of freedom. And then, in the 1970s at MIT, I worked as part of a " "community of programmers who cooperated, and thought about the ethical and " "social meaning of this cooperation. Then that community died in the early " "eighties, and by contrast with that, the world of proprietary software, " "which most computer users at the time were participating in, was morally " "sickening. And I decided that I was going to try to create once again a " "community of cooperation. I realized that, what I could get out of a life " "of participation in the competition to subjugate each other, which is what " "nonfree software is, all I could get out of that was money, and I would have " "a life that I would hate." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "" "Do you think that the free software movement, or parts of it, could or does " "benefit from collaboration with other social movements?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "I don't see very much direct benefit to free software itself. On the other " "hand we are starting to see some political parties take up the cause of free " "software, because it fits in with ideas of freedom and cooperation that they " "generally support. So in that sense, we're starting to see a contribution " "to the ideas of free software from other movements." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "" "Have you considered that the free software movement is vital to oppositional " "movements in the world that are against corporate rule, militarism, " "capitalism, etc.?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "Well, we are not against capitalism at all. We are against subjugating " "people who use computers, one particular business practice. There are " "businesses, both large and small, that distribute free software, and " "contribute to free software, and they're welcome to use it, welcome to sell " "copies, and we thank them for contributing. However, free software is a " "movement against domination, not necessarily against corporate domination, " "but against <em>any</em> domination. The users of software should not be " "dominated by the developers of the software, whether those developers be " "corporations or individuals or universities or what." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "The users shouldn't be kept divided and helpless. And that's what nonfree " "software does; it keeps the users divided and helpless. Divided because " "you're forbidden to share copies with anyone else, and helpless because you " "don't get the source code. So you can't even tell what the program does, " "let alone change it. So there is definitely a relationship. We are working " "against domination by software developers. Many of those software developers " "are corporations, and some large corporations exert a form of domination " "through nonfree software." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "" "And also that free software developers could provide a technical " "infrastructure for these movements that would be impossible to develop using " "proprietary software, which are too expensive and locked into an ideological " "model that reflects the interests of the dominant world-system like " "commoditization, exploitation, control and surveillance, instead of sharing, " "justice, freedom and democracy?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "At the moment I wouldn't go quite so far as to say that nonfree software " "couldn't be usable by opposition movements, because many of them are using " "it. It is not ethical to use nonfree software. Because… At least it " "is not ethical to use authorized copies. But it's not a good thing to use " "any copies." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "You see, to use authorized copies, you have to agree not to share with other " "people, and to agree to that is an unethical act in itself, which we should " "reject. And that is the basic reason why I started the free software " "movement. I wanted to make it easy to reject the unethical act of agreeing " "to the license of a nonfree program." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "If you're using an unauthorized copy, then you haven't agreed to that. You " "haven't committed that unethical act. But you are still… you are " "condemned to living underground. And you're still unable to get the source " "code, so you can't tell for certain what those programs do. And they might " "in fact be carrying out surveillance. And I was told that in Brazil, the " "use of unauthorized copies was in fact used as an excuse to imprison the " "activists of the landless rural workers movement, which has since switched " "to free software to escape from this danger. And they indeed couldn't " "afford the authorized copies of software. So, these things are not lined up " "directly on a straight line, but there's an increasing parallel between " "them, an increasing relationship." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "" "The business corporation as a social form is very closed—it answers to " "no one except its shareholders, for example a small group of people with " "money, and its internal bureaucratic organization is about as democratic as " "a Soviet ministry. Does the increasing involvement of corporations with " "free software strike you as something to be concerned about?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "Not directly. Because as long as a program is free software, that means the " "users are not being dominated by its developers. Whether these developers be " "a large business, a small business, a few individuals or whatever, as long " "as the software is free, they are not dominating people." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "However, most of the users of free software do not view it in ethical and " "social terms. There is a very effective and large movement called the open " "source movement, which is designed specifically to distract the users' " "attention from these ethical and social issues while talking about our " "work. And they've been quite successful; there are many people who use our " "free software, which we developed for the sake of freedom and cooperation, " "who have never heard the reasons for which we did so. And, this makes our " "community weak." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "It's like a nation that has freedom, but most of its people have never been " "taught to value freedom. They are in a vulnerable position, because if you " "say to them, “Give up your freedom and I'll give you this valuable " "thing,” they might say yes because they've never learnt why they " "should say no." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "You put that together with corporations that might want to take away " "people's freedom, to gradually encroach on freedom, and you have a " "vulnerability. And what we see is that many of the corporate developers and " "distributors of free software put it in a package together with some nonfree " "user-subjugating software. And so they say that the user-subjugating " "software is a bonus, that it enhances the system. And if you haven't learnt " "to value freedom, you won't see any reason to disbelieve them." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "But this is not a new problem and it's not limited to large corporations. " "All of the commercial distributors of the GNU/Linux system, going back " "something like 7 or 8 years, have made a practice of including nonfree " "software in their distributions, and this is something that I've been trying " "to push against in various ways, without much success. But, in fact, even " "the noncommercial distributors of the GNU+Linux operating system have been " "including and distributing nonfree software; and the sad thing was that, of " "all the many distributions, until recently there was none that I could " "recommend. Now I know of one, that I can recommend; its called " "“Ututo-e”; it comes from Argentina. I hope that very soon I " "will be able to recommend another." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "" "Why are the more technically-oriented beliefs of the open source movement " "not enough for you?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "The open source movement was founded specifically to discard the ethical " "foundation of the free software movement. The free software movement starts " "from an ethical judgment, that nonfree software is antisocial; it's wrong " "treatment of other people. And I reached this conclusion before I started " "developing the GNU system. I developed the GNU system specifically to " "create an alternative to an unethical way of using software. When someone " "says to you, “You can have this nice package of software, but only if " "you first sign a promise you will not share it with anyone else,” you " "are being asked to betray the rest of humanity. And I reached the " "conclusion in the early eighties that this was evil." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "But there was no other way to use a modern computer. All the operating " "systems required exactly such a betrayal before you could get a copy. And " "that was in order to get an executable binary copy. You couldn't have the " "source code at all. The executable binary copy is just a series of numbers, " "which even a programmer has trouble making any sense out of. The source " "code looks sort of like mathematics, and if you've learnt how to program you " "can read that. But that intelligible form, you couldn't get, even after you " "signed this betrayal. All you would get is the nonsensical numbers, which " "only the computer can understand." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "So, I decided to create an alternative, which meant another operating " "system, one that would not have these unethical requirements, one that you " "could get in the form of source code, so that, if you decided to learn to " "program, you could understand it. And you would get it without betraying " "other people, you'd be free to pass it on to others. Free either to give " "away copies or sell copies. So I began developing the GNU system, which in " "the early nineties was the bulk of what people erroneously started calling " "Linux." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "So it all exists because of an <em>ethical</em> refusal to go along with an " "antisocial practice. But this is controversial." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "In the nineties, as the GNU+Linux system became popular and got to have some " "millions of users, many of them were techies with technical blinders on, who " "didn't want to look at things in terms of right and wrong, but only in terms " "of effective or ineffective. So they began telling many other people, " "“Here is an operating system that's very reliable, and is powerful, " "and it's cool and exciting, and you can get it cheap.” And they did " "not mention that this allowed you to avoid an unethical betrayal of the rest " "of society, that it allowed users to avoid being kept divided and helpless." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "So, there were many people who used free software, but had never even heard " "of these ideas. And that included people in business, who were committed to " "an amoral approach to their lives. So, when somebody proposed the term " "“open source,” they seized on that, as a way that they could " "bury these ethical ideas. Now, they have a right to promote their views. " "But, I don't share their views, so I decline ever to do anything under the " "rubric of “open source,” and I hope that you will, too." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "" "Given that it helps users to understand the freedoms in free software when " "the ambiguous use of the word free in English is clarified, what do you " "think of the use of the name FLOSS as in Free/Libre Open Source Software?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "There are many people who, for instance, want to study our community, or " "write about our community, and want to avoid taking sides between the free " "software movement and the open source movement. Often they have heard " "primarily of the open source movement, and they think that we all support " "it. So, I point out to them that, in fact, our community was created by the " "free software movement. But then, they often say that they are not " "addressing that particular disagreement, and they'd like to mention both " "movements without taking a side. So I recommend the term Free/Libre Open " "Source Software as a way they can mention both movements and give equal " "weight to both. And they abbreviated FLOSS once they have said what it " "stands for. So I think that's a… If you don't want to take a side " "between the two movements, then yes, by all means, use that term. Of course " "what I hope you will do is take the side of the free software movement. But " "not everybody has to. That term is legitimate." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "" "Are you happy with the development of the community which has grown out of " "your vision of a free operating system? In what way did it develop " "differently from the vision you had at the beginning?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "Well, by and large, I am pretty happy with it. But of course there are some " "things that I am not happy with, mainly the weakness that so many people in " "the community do not think of it as an issue of freedom, have not learned to " "value their freedom, or even to recognize it. That makes our future " "survival questionable. It makes us weak. And so, when we face various " "threats, this weakness hampers our response. Our community could be " "destroyed by software-idea patents. It could be destroyed by treacherous " "computing. It could be destroyed simply by hardware manufacturers' refusal " "to tell us enough about how to use the hardware, so that we can't write free " "software to run the hardware." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "There're many vulnerabilities that we have over the long-term. And, well, " "the things we have to do to survive these threats are different. In all " "cases, the more aware we are, the more motivated we are, the easier it will " "be for us to do whatever it takes. So, the most fundamental long-term thing " "we have to [do is to] recognize and then value the freedom that free " "software gives, so that they will fight for their freedoms the same way " "people fight for freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of " "assembly, because those freedoms are also greatly threatened in the world " "today." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "" "So, what in your opinion threatens the growth of free software at the " "moment?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "I have to point out that our goal is not precisely growth. Our goal is to " "liberate cyberspace. Now, that does mean liberating all the users of " "computers. We hope eventually they all switch to free software, but we " "shouldn't take mere success as our goal; that's missing the ultimate point. " "But if I take this to mean, “What is holding back the spread of free " "software?” Well, partly at this point it's inertia, social inertia. " "Lots of people have learnt to use Windows. And they haven't yet learnt to " "use GNU/Linux. It's no longer very hard to learn to use GNU/Linux. Five " "years ago it was hard, now it is not. But still, it's more than zero." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "And people who are, you know,… if you never learned any computer " "system, then learning GNU/Linux is as easy as anything, but if you've " "already learnt Windows, it's easier… it's easier to keep doing what " "you know. So that's inertia. And there are more people trained in running " "Windows systems than in running GNU/Linux systems. So, any time you're " "trying to convince people to change over, you're working against inertia. " "In addition, we have a problem that hardware manufacturers don't cooperate " "with us the way they cooperate with Microsoft. So we have that inertia as " "well." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "And then, we have the danger in some countries of software-idea patents. I " "would like everybody reading this to talk to all of… or anybody " "listening to this to talk to all of their candidates for the European " "Parliament, and ask, “Where do you stand on software-idea patents? " "Will you vote to reinstate the Parliament's amendments that were adopted " "last September and that apparently are being removed by the Council of " "Ministers? Will you vote to bring back those amendments in the second " "reading?” This is a very concrete question. With a yes or no answer." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dd><p> msgid "" "You will often get other kinds of… you may get evasive answers if you " "ask, “Do you support or oppose software-idea patents?” The " "people who wrote the directive claim that it does not authorize " "software-idea patents. They say that this is because the directive says that " "anything to be patented must have a technical character. But somebody in " "the European Commission involved in this admitted that, that term means " "exactly what they want it to mean, humpty-dumpty style. So, in fact, it's no " "limitation on anything. So if a candidate says, “I support the " "Commission's draft because it won't allow software-idea patents,” you " "can point this out, and press the question, “Will you vote for the " "Parliament's previous amendments?”" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><dl><dt> msgid "OK, thanks very much." msgstr "" #. TRANSLATORS: Use space (SPC) as msgstr if you don't have notes. #. type: Content of: <div> msgid "*GNUN-SLOT: TRANSLATOR'S NOTES*" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><div><p> msgid "" "Please send general FSF & GNU inquiries to <a " "href=\"mailto:gnu@gnu.org\"><gnu@gnu.org></a>. There are also <a " "href=\"/contact/\">other ways to contact</a> the FSF. Broken links and " "other corrections or suggestions can be sent to <a " "href=\"mailto:webmasters@gnu.org\"><webmasters@gnu.org></a>." msgstr "" #. TRANSLATORS: Ignore the original text in this paragraph, #. replace it with the translation of these two: # #. We work hard and do our best to provide accurate, good quality #. translations. However, we are not exempt from imperfection. #. Please send your comments and general suggestions in this regard #. to <a href="mailto:web-translators@gnu.org"> # #. <web-translators@gnu.org></a>.</p> # #. <p>For information on coordinating and contributing translations of #. our web pages, see <a #. href="/server/standards/README.translations.html">Translations #. README</a>. #. type: Content of: <div><div><p> msgid "" "Please see the <a " "href=\"/server/standards/README.translations.html\">Translations README</a> " "for information on coordinating and contributing translations of this " "article." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "Copyright © 2004, 2021 Richard M. Stallman" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "This page is licensed under a <a rel=\"license\" " "href=\"http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons " "Attribution-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License</a>." msgstr "" #. TRANSLATORS: Use space (SPC) as msgstr if you don't want credits. #. type: Content of: <div><div> msgid "*GNUN-SLOT: TRANSLATOR'S CREDITS*" msgstr "" #. timestamp start #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "Updated:" msgstr ""