# LANGUAGE translation of https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/rms-kernel-trap-interview.html # Copyright (C) YEAR Free Software Foundation, Inc. # This file is distributed under the same license as the original article. # FIRST AUTHOR , YEAR. # #, fuzzy msgid "" msgstr "" "Project-Id-Version: rms-kernel-trap-interview.html\n" "POT-Creation-Date: 2025-02-01 15:25+0000\n" "PO-Revision-Date: YEAR-MO-DA HO:MI+ZONE\n" "Last-Translator: FULL NAME \n" "Language-Team: LANGUAGE \n" "Language: \n" "MIME-Version: 1.0\n" "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n" "Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit\n" #. type: Content of: msgid "" "Interview with Richard Stallman, KernelTrap.org, 2005 - GNU Project - Free " "Software Foundation" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h2> msgid "Interview with Richard Stallman, KernelTrap.org, 2005" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><address> msgid "conducted by Jeremy Andrews" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "Richard Stallman founded the GNU Project in 1984, and the Free Software " "Foundation in 1985. He also originally authored a number of well known and " "highly used development tools, including the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC), " "the GNU symbolic debugger (GDB) and GNU Emacs." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "To better understand Richard Stallman and the GNU Project, I recommend you " "begin by reviewing their philosophy page. On it you will find a wealth of " "information." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "We began this interview via email, but later had to finish by telephone " "after Richard Stallman fell and broke his arm. He was kind enough to speak " "with me at length, discussing his first contact with computers, his time in " "the AI Lab, the current state of the GNU Hurd, his current role in the Free " "Software Foundation, the problems with nonfree software, and much more. The " "following words offer much insight into how we got here, and what challenges " "we still face." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "Background" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Jeremy Andrews</strong>: When did you first start working with " "computers?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I first read manuals and wrote programs " "on paper in 1962 or so. 1969 was when I first saw and used a real computer." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: What types of programs were you writing prior to " "actually seeing and using a real computer?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: They were pretty trivial, like things to " "add up a vector of numbers. About the time I first started with a real " "computer I designed a computer language based on string substitution. In " "some ways like SNOBOL, although I'd never used SNOBOL." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "And then, the first thing I started writing when I had a real computer to " "use—I'd seen the language PL/I and I was thrilled by how many features " "it had. But there was a feature it didn't have: it didn't have the summation " "convention used in tensor analysis. So I started to write a pre-processor " "for PL/I that would implement the summation convention. I didn't ever finish " "it, but I actually got some parts of it to work. I wrote it first in PL/I, " "and then we discovered that even one pass of it wouldn't fit in the machine " "that was available. (I had actually written a lot of parts of this in PL/I " "on paper by that point.) Then I started rewriting it in assembler language, " "but I only rewrote a few passes of it in assembler language. And then I " "learned about things like lists and about Lisp, and lost interest in " "languages like PL/I." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: When you graduated from Harvard in 1974 with a BA in " "physics, how did you intend to use your degree?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I thought I would become a theoretical " "physicist; however, the pleasure of programming, where I could make real " "progress and see results, gradually grew and overtook the pleasure of " "learning physics." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "Life In The AI Lab" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: What tasks occupied your time at the AI Lab through the " "1970's?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Mostly operating system development, but " "I did one AI research project with Professor Sussman; we developed " "dependency-directed backtracking." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: What is dependency-directed backtracking?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: You make some assumptions, and with those " "together with some given facts you draw a conclusion. You may reach a " "contradiction; if so, at least one of your assumptions that led to that " "contradiction must be wrong. You also record which combination of " "assumptions actually related to the contradiction, so you can deduce that " "that combination of assumptions cannot all be true. Then you backtrack by " "changing assumptions, but you never try a set of assumptions that includes " "the combination that you know are contradictory. Now, this is a technique " "that people had used for a long time in thinking. It's also known as proof " "analysis. But it hadn't been used in computerized reasoning." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: What was the result of this research project?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: We published a paper. The technique got " "used by other people later, so apparently it became part of AI." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "Also, I learned how to understand electrical circuits better. The program " "that we wrote, which used this technique, was a program for understanding " "electrical circuits. By imitating the program, I could understand circuits " "better than I could before." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "The GNU Project And The Free Software Foundation" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: The story of your encounter with nonfree printer " "software in the early 80's is very well known. This incident ultimately " "resulted in your founding the GNU Project in 1984, and the Free Software " "Foundation in 1985. You have remained quite active in this movement ever " "since, as a public speaker and a prolific author of free software. Of which " "of your many achievements in the past two decades are you the most proud?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: What I am proud of is that we have built " "a community where people can use computers and work together in freedom." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: What are the largest challenges you're facing today?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Software patents. The Digital Millennium " "Copyright Act. The broadcast flag. Cards with secret specifications. Nonfree " "Java platforms." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "In other words, organized efforts by people with power to put an end to our " "freedom." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: Is there a plan for addressing these issues?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Regarding the laws, not much of one, in " "the US. In other countries that do not yet have these laws, we can try to " "prevent them." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: That's a bit scary." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: It is." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "“Free Software” vs. “Open Source”" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: You regularly have to explain the differences between " "“free software” and “open source software,” and yet " "the media continues to confuse these terms. For our readers that may " "therefore be confused themselves, can you explain the differences, and why " "it is important to get it right?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Free software and open source are the " "slogans of two different movements with different philosophies. In the free " "software movement, our goal is to be free to share and cooperate. We say " "that nonfree software is antisocial because it tramples the users' freedom, " "and we develop free software to escape from that." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "The open source movement promotes what they consider a technically superior " "development model that usually gives technically superior results. The " "values they cite are the same ones Microsoft appeals to: narrowly practical " "values." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "Free software and open source are also both criteria for software " "licenses. These criteria are written in very different ways but the licenses " "accepted are almost the same. The main difference is the difference in " "philosophy." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "Why does the philosophy matter? Because people who don't value their freedom " "will lose it. If you give people freedom but don't teach them to value it, " "they won't hold on to it for long. So it is not enough to spread free " "software. We have to teach people to demand freedom, to fight for " "freedom. Then we may be able to overcome the problems that today I see no " "way to solve." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "“GNU/Linux”" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Another frequent area of confusion is the name " "“GNU/Linux.” Why is the GNU Project's contribution significant " "enough that it should be in the name of the operating system, especially " "compared to other large pieces of any Linux-kernel based operating system, " "such as XFree86?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: It's no coincidence that the code we " "wrote for the GNU system is the largest single contribution to the GNU/Linux " "system today. Many other people and projects have developed free software " "programs now used in the system; TeX, BSD code, X11, Linux, and Apache are " "noteworthy examples. But it was the GNU Project that set out to develop a " "complete free operating system. The combined system we use today is founded " "on GNU." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: In talking about GNU Linux…" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I prefer to pronounce it “GNU slash " "Linux,” or “GNU plus Linux.” The reason is that when you " "say “GNU Linux” it is very much prone to suggest a misleading " "interpretation. After all, we have GNU Emacs which is the version of Emacs " "which was developed for GNU. If you say “GNU Linux,” people will " "think it means a version of Linux that was developed for GNU. Which is not " "the fact." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: You're trying to point out instead that it's a " "combination of the two." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Exactly. It's GNU plus Linux together." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Which makes up the GNU+Linux operating system that " "everyone uses." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Exactly." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: What is gained by people using the term GNU/Linux?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: People know that Linus Torvalds wrote his " "program Linux to have fun. And people know that Linus Torvalds did not say " "that it's wrong to stop users for sharing and changing the software they " "use. If they think that our system was started by him and primarily owes " "existence to him, they will tend to follow his philosophy, and that weakens " "our community." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "It's an interesting anecdote to think that the whole operating system exists " "because an undergraduate thought that it was a fun project. But the real " "story is that this system exists because of people who were determined to " "fight for freedom and willing to work for years if that's what it " "took. That's a story that teaches people something worth learning." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "When people forget that, they start drifting toward the practical but " "superficial values shared by the open source movement and Microsoft: the " "idea that the only thing that matters about your software is whether it gets " "your jobs done and what it costs." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Which begins to answer my next question, what is lost " "when people refuse to use the term GNU/Linux?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: What's lost is an opportunity to teach " "people. The software is equally free regardless of whatever name you call " "it—if, that is, the distro you're using really is free. But the only " "free GNU/Linux distro I know of is Ututo. Most versions of the GNU/Linux " "system are not entirely free software. All the commercial distributors put " "in nonfree software. And then there's Debian which keeps all the nonfree " "software clearly separated, but does distribute it. And those who sell " "Debian GNU/Linux often add a few nonfree programs as a " "“bonus”… They invite you to think it's a bonus you're " "getting that your freedom is no longer complete." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "If you happen to be running a version of GNU/Linux which doesn't have the " "nonfree software, then the situation is not materially changed by the name " "you use. But the situation we're likely to find ourselves in five years from " "now depends on what we teach each other today." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet, but if you called it an onion " "you'd get cooks very confused." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "GNU/Hurd" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: The GNU Hurd has been under development for over a " "decade. There was talk of a 1.0 release over a year ago, but this was " "delayed due to a couple of lacking features. What is the current status of " "this project?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: The Hurd runs, and missing features are " "gradually being added. However, for practical use today, you would use a " "Linux-based version of GNU." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Do you have any predictions as to when we're going to " "see a 1.0 release?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: No, I'm afraid I don't, I'm sad to say. A " "lot of the Hurd developers seem to have decided that they should re-write it " "to work with a different micro-kernel (L4). I was disappointed to hear this, " "but now it looks like it will be some more years before the Hurd is usable." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "At least we do have a free kernel that works with GNU." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Will the GNU Project focus solely on a GNU system built " "around the GNU Hurd when it is released, or will it continue to support a " "widening range of free-software kernels?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: We will keep supporting Linux-based " "versions of the GNU system for as long as they remain popular." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: How will we refer to a Hurd-based operating system? Is " "it GNU Hurd, or GNU slash Hurd?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: It's the GNU operating system, and the " "Hurd is its kernel. But because it's so common for people to use version of " "GNU that are based on Linux as the kernel, it's useful to contrast the two, " "and talk about GNU/Linux and GNU/Hurd, which are two different versions of " "the GNU system with different kernels." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: What would the advantages of using a GNU/Hurd system be " "over say a GNU/Linux system?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: There's probably no gigantic advantage " "that jumps out at the user's face if you're not writing interesting " "programs. The Hurd offers interesting, powerful capabilities. For instance, " "you can write your own filesystem, so you could implement any sort of " "behavior you want and package it as a file. It offers the possibility of " "implementing sandboxes, where you can run a program but have another program " "monitoring all its I/O to make sure it doesn't start writing in files it " "wasn't expected to." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "These things may be doable with a kernel that doesn't have the Hurd's " "architecture, but with the Hurd it's trivial and the most natural thing in " "the world." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "Writing Code versus Management" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: How much source code do you write these days?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I myself? Only a little, on Emacs. I was " "involuntarily self-promoted into management." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: That's an interesting description. How did this happen?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: The amount of management and activism " "that had to be done got more and more, and so I had to find other people to " "take over more and more of my programming responsibilities." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: Do you miss the programming?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Yes. It's fun." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Is the management/activist role something you desire to " "remain in?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I wouldn't say I desire to, but it's " "necessary that I do so. At the moment we don't have anyone to replace " "me. We're actually thinking about how we could try and develop people who " "could do this, so that I will not be indispensable." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: What is your role these days?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Partly it is being a very firm and " "determined leader. Partly it is being an orator. Partly it is advising other " "people on how to be activists or how to contribute to free software. I've " "learned something that a lot of people could usefully know: how to be " "extremely persistent and whenever one avenue was blocked find another." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "I've also learned the spirit of what you do when you're fighting for " "freedom. When it's a fight that you can't ever give up as lost." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Many of the programs you were the original author for " "are key components of much software development today (free and nonfree " "alike), such as the GNU Compiler Collection (GCC), the GNU symbolic debugger " "(GDB), and GNU Emacs. All of these projects have remained under constant " "development over the years. How closely have you followed the many projects " "you've started, and how do you feel about the directions they've taken?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I don't follow GCC and GDB in technical " "detail nowadays—other people now have that responsibility. I still " "supervise Emacs development." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "GNU Emacs" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: Then you are still working on Emacs at a code level?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Yes, although now with my broken arm I " "really have no time to program anything. I will when my arm is better and I " "can type for myself again." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: May I ask what happened to your arm?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I fell and broke my arm, and I needed " "surgery. It hurts, and I think it will never be normal again. But I think it " "will work for typing. (Later: it works fine for typing, but it tingles all " "the time.)" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: I'm sorry to hear about your arm, and I wish you a " "speedy recovery." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "I recently reread Cliff Stoll's “The Cuckoo's Egg.” Are you " "familiar with the book?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I have a vague memory of it." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: A quick summary, he talks about a spy that breaks into " "a university computer system, initially using a security hole in GNU " "Emacs…" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Well, whether it's really a security " "hole, or whether he had made a mistake by installing a certain program " "setuid is subject to argument." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: That's exactly what I was curious about, just what your " "reaction would have been to the book when it came out." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: His book made it sound like Emacs, or " "actually Movemail I think it was… His book made it sound like it was " "normal to install Movemail setuid. I think some people sometimes did that, " "as there was a certain problem you could get around by doing that, but that " "wasn't the normal way to install it. So in fact, people installing Emacs the " "usual way would not have had that problem." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "On the other hand, it certainly was useful to make Emacs more bulletproof, " "so that that problem couldn't happen even if you installed Movemail as " "setuid." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "That was ages ago." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "Nonfree Software" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: What is your reaction to tools such as GCC, GDB and GNU " "Emacs being used for the development of nonfree software?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Any development of nonfree software is " "harmful and unfortunate, whether it uses GNU tools or other tools. Whether " "it is good or bad, in the long term, for the future of computer users' " "freedom that one can use these tools to develop nonfree software is a " "question whose answer I could only guess at." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: How do you react to the opinion that nonfree software " "is justified as a means for raising dollars that can then be put into the " "development of completely new software, money that otherwise may not have " "been available, and thus creating software that may have never been " "developed?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: This is no justification at all. A " "nonfree program systematically denies the users the freedom to cooperate; it " "is the basis of an antisocial scheme to dominate people. The program is " "available lawfully only to those who will surrender their freedom. That's " "not a contribution to society, it's a social problem. It is better to " "develop no software than to develop nonfree software." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "So if you find yourself in that situation, please don't follow that " "path. Please don't write the nonfree program—please do something else " "instead. We can wait till someone else has the chance to develop a free " "program to do the same job." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: What about the programmers…" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: What about them? The programmers writing " "nonfree software? They are doing something antisocial. They should get some " "other job." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: Such as?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: There are thousands of different jobs " "people can have in society without developing nonfree software. You can even " "be a programmer. Most paid programmers are developing custom " "software—only a small fraction are developing nonfree software. The " "small fraction of proprietary software jobs are not hard to avoid." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: What is the distinction there?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Nonfree software is meant to be " "distributed to the public. Custom software is meant to be used by one " "client. There's no ethical problem with custom software as long as you're " "respecting your client's freedom." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "The next point is that programmers are a tiny fraction of employment in the " "computer field. Suppose somebody developed an AI and no programmers were " "needed anymore. Would this be a disaster? Would all the people who are now " "programmers be doomed to unemployment for the rest of their lives? Obviously " "not, but this doesn't stop people from exaggerating the issue." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "And what if there aren't any programming jobs in the US anymore?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: You mean what if all the programming jobs were " "outsourced to foreign countries?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Yes, what if they all go? This may " "actually happen. When you start thinking about things like total levels of " "employment, you've got think about all the factors that affect it, not blame " "it all on one factor. The cause of unemployment is not someone or society " "deciding that software should be free. The cause of the problem is largely " "economic policies designed to benefit only the rich. Such as driving wages " "down." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "You know, it's no coincidence that we're having all this outsourcing. That " "was carefully planned. International treaties were designed to make this " "happen so that people's wages would be reduced." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: Can you cite specific examples?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: FTAA. The World Trade " "Organization. NAFTA. These treaties are designed to reduce wages by making " "it easy for a company to say to various countries, “Which of you will " "let us pay people the least? That's where we're headed.” And if any " "country starts having a somewhat increased standard of living, companies " "say, “Oh, this is a bad labor climate here. You're not making a good " "climate for business. All the business is going to go away. You better make " "sure that people get paid less. You're following a foolish policy arranging " "for workers of your country to be paid more. You've got to make sure that " "your workers are the lowest paid anywhere in the world, then we'll come " "back. Otherwise we're all going to run away and punish you.”" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "Businesses very often do it, they move operations out of a country to punish " "that country. And I've recently come to the conclusion that frictionless " "international trade is inherently a harmful thing, because it makes it too " "easy for companies to move from one country to another. We have to make that " "difficult enough that each company can be stuck in some country that can " "regulate it." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "The book No Logo explains that the Philippines have laws that protect labor " "standards, but these laws count for nothing any more. They decided to set up " "“enterprise zones”—that's the euphemism they used for " "“sweat shop zones”—where companies are exempt from these " "rules for the first two years. And as a result, no company lasts for more " "than two years. When their exemption runs out, the owners shut it down and " "they start another." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: How does free software address this?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Free software doesn't address this. Free " "software addresses the issue of how computer users can have freedom to " "cooperate and to control their own computers. This is the larger issue that " "becomes relevant when you start talking about “How are people going to " "have jobs that pay them decently?” The answer is: in the world of the " "low wage treaties, they're not going to." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "It's inconsistent and futile to subject millions of people to the loss of " "freedom that nonfree software imposes, just so that a tiny segment of " "society will have better paying jobs, when we're ignoring all the rest of " "society with their lousy jobs." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "If you want to start doing something about that problem, do it at the right " "level, which is the level of the power balance between corporations and " "countries. Corporations are too powerful now. We have to knock them down. I " "don't believe in abolishing business or even in abolishing corporations, but " "we've got to make sure that no corporation is powerful enough that it can " "say to all the countries in the world, “I'll punish any country that " "doesn't obey.”" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "That is the way it works now. And it was deliberately set up by people such " "as Reagan, and Clinton, and Bush and Bush." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "New Technologies" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: I have read that the free software model tends to " "imitate existing software, rather than blaze new trails and developing " "completely new technologies." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: To speak of a free software " "“model” is somewhat misleading. The open source movement speaks " "of a “development model,” but our concern is for the user's " "freedom, not how the program is developed." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "Free software doesn't always imitate, but often it does. There's a good " "reason for this: freedom is the main goal, and innovation is secondary." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "Our goal is to develop free software so that we can use computers " "exclusively with free software. In 1984, we started with nearly zero (we had " "TeX, nothing else). We had a lot of catching up to do, so we have done " "it. Even if GNU/Linux had no technical innovations compared with Unix, it " "would be completely superior because it respects your freedom as Unix does " "not." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Do you believe that free software has caught up with " "nonfree software?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: To a large extent, but not totally." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Would you say that we're going to start seeing a lot of " "technical innovations originating from free software as things are catching " "up?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: We already have. We already have seen " "technical innovations in free software. A lot of them help make up the world " "wide web." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "The Internet" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Does the importance of using only free software apply " "to the Internet?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I don't understand the question." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Software not only runs on personal computers, but also " "on the computers that comprise the Internet…" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: That may mean your computer. If your " "computer is on the Internet, then that's one of the computers you're talking " "about." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: You're correct. At this very moment my computer is part " "of the Internet. And my computer is comprised entirely of free " "software. However there are plenty of computers on the Internet that are not " "comprised of free software." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I think you meant to say, “not " "running entirely free software.” There are many computers on the net " "that are not running free software, and that means the people who use and " "own those computers have lost this aspect of their freedom. That's a " "problem." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Do you consider it proper for people who are trying to " "only use free software to utilize…" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: To connect to a server that's running " "nonfree software?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "I don't feel I need to refuse to connect to a server that is running nonfree " "software. For that matter, I won't refuse to type on a computer that's " "running nonfree software. If I were visiting your house for a little and you " "had a Windows machine, I would use it if it were important for me to use " "it. I wouldn't be willing to have Windows on my computer, and you shouldn't " "have it on yours, but I can't change that by refusing to touch the machine." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "If you connect to a server that runs nonfree software, you're not the one " "whose freedom is harmed. It's the server operator who has lost freedom to " "the restrictions on the software he runs. This is unfortunate, and I hope " "that he switches to free software; we're working to bring that about. But I " "don't feel you have to boycott his site until he switches. He isn't making " "you use the nonfree software." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Back to my earlier question, as a specific example do " "you use tools such as Google when attempting to locate online content?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I have nothing against communicating with " "Google's network server, but for Google's sake I hope they have the freedom " "to study, change and redistribute the software used on their server. Having " "the freedom to do so does not imply the obligation to do so; Google doesn't " "have to change or redistribute the software they run. But they ought to be " "free to do this, just as you and I should be free to do this with the " "software on our machines." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "The Workplace" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: What if your job requires you to use nonfree software?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I would quit that job. Would you " "participate in something anti-social just because somebody pays you to? What " "if the job involves hitting people on the head in the street and taking " "their wallets? What if it involves spreading the word that Democrats should " "vote on Wednesday instead of Tuesday? Some people seriously claim that you " "can't criticize what someone does if it is part of their job. From my point " "of view, the fact that somebody is being paid to do something wrong is not " "an excuse." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "Embedded Applications" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Embedded applications have become more and more " "prevalent in society. Is it possible to completely avoid nonfree software " "and still remain in touch with current technologies?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I don't know if it is possible, but if it " "is not, that is something we need to change. Once an embedded system can " "talk to a network, or users normally load software into it, its software " "needs to be free. For instance, if it uses nonfree software to talk to the " "network, you can't trust it not to spy on you." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "SCO" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: How do you react to SCO's recent accusations about the " "Linux kernel?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: The vague and cagey nature of their " "statements, coupled with having seen that the only specific facts they " "produced proved to be false, suggests they have no real case." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: What impact do you expect this to have on free " "software?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I don't expect it to have a big impact " "because I don't think they have a case. They're trying to create FUD and " "they may scare some timid people off." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: Do you expect this to bring the GPL into the courtroom?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I don't know." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: Is that a concern for you?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: We think the GPL will stand up in court, " "but no wise person is eager to get into a battle, even if he thinks he's " "well enough armed that he'd probably win." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "The arguments that SCO have been making are so laughably absurd that they " "lend support to the idea that SCO has no real case, that they're only " "interested in creating FUD." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: To what end?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: They hope some companies will pay them " "money, and Microsoft already did." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "To people who know almost nothing about copyright law, anything sounds as " "plausible as anything else. When they hear what SCO says, they don't know " "how ridiculous it is. So they think, “SCO says this, IBM says that, " "how do I know who's right?”" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: What's in store for the GNU General Public License " "(GPL)? Are there plans for a version 3?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Yes, but we are not really sure what will " "change. What we can say is that the changes will be details." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><h3> msgid "Getting Involved" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>JA</strong>: Is there any other current event that you'd like to " "address?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: The FCC last year decided to require " "digital restrictions management in all receivers of digital TV. And not only " "that, to require that they be made not modifiable by the user. I think they " "have not yet decided whether this device is software controlled. If they " "make it software controlled then for the first time there will be a " "government policy explicitly banning free software for a job that millions " "of people are going to want to do." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: Are you optimistic about this?" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: I don't know. I am a pessimist by " "nature. Many people can only keep on fighting when they expect to win. I'm " "not like that, I always expect to lose. I fight anyway, and sometimes I win." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "I'm not the main leader in this particular battle. The Electronic Frontier " "Foundation is fighting. Public Knowledge is fighting. People need to get " "involved politically. At this point people should go to the EFF website and " "the Public Knowledge website, and continue doing so over the coming weeks to " "see how they can get involved in this coming campaign. It's going to take a " "lot of people spending probably at least twenty minutes. If you care enough " "about your freedom to spend twenty minutes on it, if you can tear yourself " "away from whatever little job it is you're doing this week, and next week, " "and so on. Spend a little time fighting for your freedom, and we can win." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>JA</strong>: Thank you." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "<strong>Richard Stallman</strong>: Happy hacking!" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><div><p> msgid "" "Source:  <a " "href=\"https://web.archive.org/web/20120621163233/http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484\"> " "kerneltrap.org/node/4484</a> [Archived]" msgstr "" #. TRANSLATORS: Use space (SPC) as msgstr if you don't have notes. #. type: Content of: <div> msgid "*GNUN-SLOT: TRANSLATOR'S NOTES*" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><div><p> msgid "" "Please send general FSF & GNU inquiries to <a " "href=\"mailto:gnu@gnu.org\"><gnu@gnu.org></a>. There are also <a " "href=\"/contact/\">other ways to contact</a> the FSF. Broken links and " "other corrections or suggestions can be sent to <a " "href=\"mailto:webmasters@gnu.org\"><webmasters@gnu.org></a>." msgstr "" #. TRANSLATORS: Ignore the original text in this paragraph, #. replace it with the translation of these two: # #. We work hard and do our best to provide accurate, good quality #. translations. However, we are not exempt from imperfection. #. Please send your comments and general suggestions in this regard #. to <a href="mailto:web-translators@gnu.org"> # #. <web-translators@gnu.org></a>.</p> # #. <p>For information on coordinating and contributing translations of #. our web pages, see <a #. href="/server/standards/README.translations.html">Translations #. README</a>. #. type: Content of: <div><div><p> msgid "" "Please see the <a " "href=\"/server/standards/README.translations.html\">Translations README</a> " "for information on coordinating and contributing translations of this " "article." msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "Copyright © 2005, 2025 Richard Stallman, Jeremy Andrews" msgstr "" #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "" "This page is licensed under a <a rel=\"license\" " "href=\"http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons " "Attribution-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License</a>." msgstr "" #. TRANSLATORS: Use space (SPC) as msgstr if you don't want credits. #. type: Content of: <div><div> msgid "*GNUN-SLOT: TRANSLATOR'S CREDITS*" msgstr "" #. timestamp start #. type: Content of: <div><p> msgid "Updated:" msgstr ""